Transcript: Track 28: BDSM
Episode 28 posted February 12, 2022
Links to all fics mentioned can be found on the main episode post.
Jump to:
- War Wounds by CBFirestarter
- I Wanna Get Outside (Of Me) by emwebb17
- Beg Pretty For Me by kittimau
- “Yes, Sir” by Redamber79
[Intro music]
Ellen: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. Welcome to the 28th episode of Mixtape Book Club. My name’s Ellen…
Mal: and my name is Mal.
Ellen: In each episode, we take an in-depth look at a different trope or subgenre in the huge collection of Destiel fanfiction. And in this episode, we’re gonna take a look at some fics where Dean and Castile are into BDSM, like a dominant and submissive relationship.
Mal: To discuss her fic, War Wounds, we would like to welcome back to the podcast author CBFirestarter. Hey, CB.
CBFirestarter: Hi everybody.
Ellen: Welcome back.
CBFirestarter: Thank you. I’m so glad you guys invited me back to come on. I was very excited about this topic. So…
Mal: yay. This is definitely your wheelhouse.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. At this point with the, between the fics I’ve written and the fics I’ve read [00:01:00] one of my favorite genres.
Mal: Same, same.
Ellen: As well as War Wounds we’re also gonna talk about today I Wanna Get Outside (Of Me) by emwebb17, Beg Pretty For Me by kittimau, and “Yes, Sir” by Redamber79. And also we’ve got like a bunch of other fics that we, we are gonna mention and talk about later on. So, lots and lots of choose from. The BDSM sort of community as a sub-community of the Destiel fandom is massive and very… I guess the authors are very prolific.
There’s quite a lot of it out there. High quality. So before we get started actually talking about any of this, we have to warn that obviously we’re gonna be talking about not safe for work content. So if you’ve got small ears around or people, you know, if you are in a delicate kind of location, maybe not listen to this right now, but come [00:02:00] back later when you alone and you know, ready to listen to something a bit not safe for work.
Mal: There is no way to address this one without just… dicks galore. I was thinking about this the other day before we recorded and nope, there is no way that we can get through this without just penises left, right and center and God knows what else. So (laughing)
CBFirestarter: make sure the wrong Bluetooth speaker is not hooked up. (laughing) Start projecting us talking about BDSM like a concert backyard or, something
Mal: I’ve that with a podfic before. So
CBFirestarter: Yeah, I’m pretty sure most of us have had that moment, so, yep. Yep. Listeners be warned.
Ellen: And the other warning that we just have to put out there is that please do not use fan fiction as sex education. It’s fictional, yes. A lot of it is you know, healthy relationships and good kind of you know, practicing good health and consent. But obviously if you would like to know more about any of this kind of things that we’re talking [00:03:00] about today, please don’t learn from the fics. Go and find reputable sources and maybe we can link some in our post even to…
Mal: Yeah, that’s a good idea.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. There are a lot of good sites out there that, you know, have information about healthy BDSM practices. So…
Ellen: yes, whatever you don’t listen to 50 Shades of Gray as the only source for…
Mal: God, please no.
CBFirestarter: Just don’t.
Ellen: I guess I just wanted to mention that we do have a slight basis for Dean being a bit into kinky stuff in the… I didn’t actually write down the episode that this is from, but where he says, “I wanna get slapped during sex by a girl wearing a Zorro mask, but that don’t make it a good idea.” At some point
CBFirestarter: I mostly remember that line from the blooper reel, like it’s in the blooper reels that he like keeps tripping over the line. And I feel like that’s why I remember it so much. But yeah, I can’t remember what [00:04:00] season or episode that was in
Ellen: I mean, I’m sure there are other examples where he just says stuff and you go, “Oh!”
CBFirestarter: Well, and there was the scene in… oh gosh, I don’t know if it was 13 or 12, it was probably 13 where he like goes out to some club and he comes back with a flogger and like underwear everywhere. Do you remember that?
Ellen: And like a bra on his face?
Mal: Oh, it wasn’t that during the “Cas is in the Empty” phase?
CBFirestarter: Yeah. He’s all sad about Cas being in the Empty and Sam tries to take him to like some gross Clam Shack place.
Ellen: Clam Diver?
CBFirestarter: yes. Clam diver. (laughs) Yep.
Ellen: And there’s also, I remember another episode where… oh this is gonna be like really vague, but he goes to somewhere and there’s a guy wearing like a leather harness and… like a big bear looking guy. And he was really interested for some oh, [00:05:00]
CBFirestarter: It was like that magician episode, they sent him there as a joke.
Ellen: Okay. Okay.
CBFirestarter: there’s canon innuendo.
Mal: there definitely is some canon basis for maybe thinking that’s slightly indicated that Dean would possibly be into this, who knows
Ellen: That’s super vague, but you know
Mal: it’s fanfic. We can do what we want.
CBFirestarter: Dean’s a pretty open, experimental kind of guy. I think so. Very plausible. So
Ellen: CB, you have written quite a few. Like I didn’t realize just how many of your fics were BDSM ones until I started looking through your catalog, I’m like, “oh yeah, that one!” So you got quite a few, like little one shots as well as your longer fics.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I’ve got, I don’t know how many one shots I have because I did that thick auction that one year. And I ended up writing a couple of them and co-authored a few with TrenchcoatBaby. And [00:06:00] then, yeah, I have currently three, no, four, four full length fics that are in the BDSM genre. So yeah, it’s definitely an area I’ve enjoyed. You know, a sandbox I’ve enjoyed playing in. So
Ellen: and you’ve got your WIP at the moment, which is nearly complete, Whiplash, with TrenchcoatBaby as well. So that’s biological BDSM, which we have decided to keep as a separate thing for another episode probably. Rather than talking about it today.
CBFirestarter: So yeah. Yeah, I think it could totally be its own genre and it’s, when you talk about biological BDSM, it really changes the, you know, the rules of what a safe, you know, sane consensual relationship is in BDSM.
So they’re definitely two different animals, even though they kind of fall under the same umbrella. So I think that makes sense.
Mal: Yeah. It’s all fantasy ‘cause it’s fanfic at the end of the day, but you [00:07:00] know, BDSM does have its roots in something very actual and real with set kind of rules and things that actually kinda happen out in the real world.
Whereas the whole biological thing really kind of throws it that much more into fantasy. For me, it’s almost, I don’t know in my head I have it lined up there with A/B/O a lot of the time. ‘Cause it’s that kind of biological thing. So it’s kinda you know, the A/B/O version. I think without the slick.
CBFirestarter: there’s a lot of physical need, whether, you know, in Omegaverse it’s a physical need for whether it’s a heat or a rut or it’s like their bodies are making them have sex. And then similar to biological bdsm, their bodies and their biology are kind of forcing them almost to need these things. So then you kind of just run into some, like in the real world, these are sticky consent issues and I think we kind of put that on our Whiplash fic, which is our biological BDSM one, which is “there’s gonna be some consent issues here. People, this is not the prior fics. Please take [00:08:00] note of that.” But it is a fun, you know, like you said, it’s fiction, it’s make believe and it’s, you know, fun to play around in that world.
Ellen: yeah, I think a lot of authors who do write these fics as well tend to tag really well, or at least include trigger warning type information in each chapter. So it’s like a safe way to kind of explore this, these kind of ideas, ‘cause you can, you can filter out stuff that you don’t wanna see and whatever.
Mal: Well, I always kind of think of it like if you wanna reframe it in like a BDSM way, like your tags are kind of like your contract with your readers, right?
CBFirestarter: Very true.
Mal: So, you know. We obviously tag certain things because if you’re writing a BDSM, hopefully consent is a pretty big issue. You know, for your reader to, to consent to read something, they have to know upfront what they’re getting into.
CBFirestarter: I think that’s one of the things that’s always drawn me to honestly, to BDSM, especially writing it and writing explicit scenes with [00:09:00] it. Because, you know, in a good relationship there is so much consent, there’s so much checking in, there’s so much making sure you’re on the same page and there’s not a lot of guessing, “well, I hope they want me to do this.”
And you know, I think in, you know, whether you’re talking like fanfic or not, like there’s a lot more consent checking in than you might have in a regular smut scene with the characters, you know, where they’re just feeling their way out. Like, “Did he like two fingers up his ass? I don’t know” like versus if it was they had, you know, talked about the scene beforehand, then they would know, “well, I’m good with two, but don’t push it with three.”
You know? Yeah. It’s and I think there’s something that I kind of enjoy about that because when things are kind of laid out and they both know exactly what they want out of it and what they will and will not do, then there’s a lot more freedom to, you know, the sex they can engage in because they both know what’s expected almost.[00:10:00]
Mal: Yeah. I’m somebody who… sounds odd to say likes talking about sex, but I’m very comfortable with it and so it’s kind of nice to see represented as much as it is in fanfic, these relationships where they will, to me, as you should , just talk about things and be completely kind of open about their expectations, their hopes, the things that they have completely off the table.
I have noticed in a lot of original fiction, like fanfic is much better at that I find even within BDSM in original fiction.
CBFirestarter: Oh, I fully agree.
Mal: It’s not, yeah, not represented as well. There’s much less communication and this is a very personal thing for me, but I find silent sex scenes boring. Like I,
CBFirestarter: yes.
Mal: You know, I like them to be communicating. I mean, it’s perfectly okay for them to communicate physically. That’s fine.
CBFirestarter: I love dirty talk too,
Mal: But yeah, I like the talk in there, which is probably why I don’t have that many scenes with [00:11:00] gags in my fics, now I think about it. Cause I like them being able to talk and make noises
CBFirestarter: It’s too funny that you say that ‘cause now I’m thinking about it and I’m like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, although a good whimpering Dean making moans and such through the gag. Well, oh yeah. At least one of them needs to be dirty talking though.
Mal: Yeah. Like I couldn’t have both of them quiet.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. If Dean is gagged, then Cas is gonna be doing a lot of talking if I have that scene written.
Mal: Yeah, like I said, there needs to be something like a sex scene that is just, kind of motion and not much else is just for me personally, each to their own. Always,
CBFirestarter: a little less engaging.
Mal: Yeah. Yeah. I do find myself just kind of skimming through those quite quickly and just not getting into it in the same way.
Ellen: Note to self: add talking in…
CBFirestarter: in smut scenes. (laughing)
Mal: It’s sexy when they talk.
CBFirestarter: I mean, does everybody know what BDSM stands for? [00:12:00]
Ellen: We should probably lead with that.
Mal: yeah. I guess we could do a quick BDSM 101 kind of.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. Well, I mean, just a little bit of it can’t hurt. Right. I mean it was something I had to Google.
Ellen: Okay. Give us the low down, CB.
CBFirestarter: And I think it’s something that people… I’ll give you guys the low down, not that you don’t know, ‘cause both of you..
Mal: yeah… (laughing)
CBFirestarter: But for any listeners out there, even if this might sound a little redundant I guess, but I’ve done a lot of thinking on it. It’s one of those things where I have kind of obsessive mind, so like I did a lot of obsessive thinking about BDSM relationships and how those dynamic work and. You know, it’s bondage, which is the B domination, which is the D, and then there’s two S’s, there’s sadism and submission, and then M is your masochism. And I’m sure somebody out there is gonna be like, there’s another letter.
And one of those also stands for this, and I’m probably forgetting one, but, those are the ones I remember. And those [00:13:00] things are kind of important because there are, within BDSM there are power exchanges where there is a dominant person in the relationship, a dom and a submissive, a person who is, you know, giving up control, hopefully in a controlled, safe way to a dominant.
But there are also BDSM relationships that don’t necessarily have any power exchange. There may just be someone with sadist tendencies and someone with masochistic tendencies who maybe just enjoys, you know, getting paddled or whipped or spanked or whatever kind of, you know, masochism or sadism that they’re into.
And it might not necessarily be a power exchange for them. And there can be people who engage in a power exchange with, you know, no sex at all, or no pain or no sadism or masochism. So I think the big thing that people should take away from it too is that you don’t have to have all of it. You know
Mal: Yeah, it’s kind of like LGBT. You can be more than one letter or you can just be one, and that’s okay.
CBFirestarter: You can go grocery shopping [00:14:00] and just, you know, pick what you want off the shelves.
Mal: Exactly.
CBFirestarter: Any letter that you feel like engaging with. And I think that’s why there’s a lot of variety.
Mal: You could just be a B, be a rope bunny and nothing else. Each to their own
CBFirestarter: It’s true. And while, and you know, I think we’ve discussed that most of the BDSM fics that are out there, at least that I’ve read, are all explicit and usually sexual relationships. There is a lot of real life, I believe, relationships where it’s not always sexual, sometimes it’s just about having a power exchange and people can, you know, get enjoyment out of that kind of relationship or that kind of scene, even without any sex being involved.
So, it’s definitely a great wide world out there.
Mal: Yeah. I think that’s a fairly significant representation. I’m gonna say specifically of like domestic submissives. So, which you do occasionally see represented in fic but there’s usually also a sexual element involved there too.
CBFirestarter: Yes. Yeah. One of the few I would say like mainstream [00:15:00] BDSM entertainment, I’m like looking for the right word.
There is the show Bondage on Netflix, which I actually have found is one of the very few you know, you cringe at 50 Shades and you cringe at some of that other stuff. But this one is actually it’s an interesting take on it and I thought it was a lot more honest and a lot closer to like what I believe the real BDSM communities are like.
So, if anyone’s curious about it, they could go check it out. But yeah, I think that’s all I would have to say on it. We’ve covered consent and all of that as being a huge part of that, which I’m sure we’re gonna get into during all the fics, too.
Mal: It’s one of those things where there’s a lot more to it, but when it comes down to it, like BDSM can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you have two people that are on the same page about what they want it to be.
And so really that the scope of different things we could talk about is pretty massive. But yeah, I’m sure we’ll chat about stuff as it comes [00:16:00] up in the fics we’re reading.
Ellen: So there are quite a few fics I’ve seen in the tag… Okay, so I did a bit of a dive into the different tags that are on these fics and there are quite a few tagged as “bad BDSM etiquette”.
So if you are worried about… I think if people have been in a bad situation, they might wanna avoid that kind of thing, and that there are tags that will cover that if you wanna filter those ones out. So, you know, I’m just saying that they fics aren’t always portraying healthy relationships. Sometimes say people wanna explore you know, I guess power hungry… Like usually it’s not with, it’s not usually between Dean and Cas, thank God. We don’t have them usually having a bad relationship. It’s usually someone like Alastair or, you know, a bad person, one of the bad guys who is you know, not doing it right I guess. So yeah, often they are tagged and I like to think that it’s only brief and to move [00:17:00] the story along, you know, like we don’t dwell on the kind of really nasty stuff that happens out there.
Mal: Yeah, I think, you know, it’s almost good to kind of represent that stuff sometimes though, just because it’s good for people to see what’s wrong as much as they see all the good things.
CBFirestarter: Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. So as long as you’re calling it out for what it is. That’s then you’re not like trying to pass it off as like this is a completely normal, healthy scene for a person to engage in. It’s no. This is dangerous. This is not like a great idea.
Mal: But as much as we say, oh, you know, it can be whatever you want it to be, as long as you both agree, there are still some very specific things that should be avoided at all costs. So it’s actually kind of nice to see those represented because it gives people a safe way to experience those and also a safe way to understand why they should be avoided.
Sorry, that was probably getting a little deep for a fanfic discussion, but, you know, [00:18:00]
CBFirestarter: this is true.
Ellen: Well, I’ll go back to our the tags that I was looking at. I’ll post a link to the little graph that I’ve got here about the tags. But we did discover that in our, in the Destiel fandom, there is like almost three times as many fics with Dom Cas as there are the other way around, like with Dom Dean.
So I’m not sure what that says. I mean, I’m sure there are people who prefer one way or the other and that’s fine. Or you can read all of it or, whatever you like. But yeah, in general represented is a vast majority of Cas being the dom, which is an interesting thought. The highest tagged kink here is spanking, I believe. Like, two-thirds of the fics that are tagged as BDSM include spanking.
CBFirestarter: My favorite what is it? My favorite tag for BDSM is “Team Dean’s Red Ass.”
Ellen: Yes. Maybe I [00:19:00] should have included spanking and Team Dean’s Red Ass in the same category.
CBFirestarter: I love getting to put that tag on there. Yeah. No surprise to anyone if you read any of my BDSM fics, I’m pretty sure Dean’s ass gets red at some point. Yes.
War Wounds
Mal: Alright. Yeah, we can start off on War Wounds if we’d like. I know, I’d like to! I think yeah, CB can probably read us the summary and introduce War Wounds to us if you would like.
CBFirestarter: Sure. Oh my goodness. Summaries. I haven’t actually read my own summary in so long. Okay.
Surviving the war had been one of the hardest things Dean had ever done. Coming home from the war is proving to be even harder. Lost and adrift, he feels like he’s drowning. When he happens upon a horse farm looking for help it might just be the lifeline he’s been looking for.
When Cas meets the new farm hand he sees the same injured look in those eyes he’s seen time and again in the horses he’s rescued. Can he break through to Dean the way he has with his horses? Teach him to trust, to surrender, to connect. Can he break down Dean’s defenses without destroying his own? Maybe with a little hope and a little rope they can find a way through together.
I will admit that last line always made me giggle when I wrote it.
Ellen: Yes! I always loved that line.
Mal: I like it.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I was just saying that I hadn’t alluded to the fact that it was even a BDSM fic in the summary at all until the very last line.
Ellen: A little rope that gives it away.
So you published this one serially during 2019. So it’s a couple years old now. It’s just over 77,000 words. And it is explicit. As in all the fics we are talking about today are explicit.
CBFirestarter: yeah, this was a bit of a pandemic write for me. Good old 2020. [00:21:00]
Ellen: So, so, tell us about how this one came to be. It’s got horses in it.
CBFirestarter: I know! So yeah, I mean it was one of those things where I’d I think I was coming off of having finished Willing and Able which was my very first BDSM fic. And I’d had a very clear idea of what I wanted out of that one. And that one was to me was just, I’m like, I’m gonna write a BDSM fic.
I’ve read so many of them, it’s turning into my favorite genre. I have to write it. You know, I think kind of the same way I was with Omegaverse, I was like, oh, I’ve read so much of this. I’m in love, it’s time. Which was what Willing and Able was. And Waiting on a Signal was my next one that I wrote with Trenchcoat Baby, and that was really just me and her going, how kinky can we get and trying to one up each other. And that was really a very playful fic, fun, lighthearted you know, we’ve discussed that here with the two person love triangle, but
Ellen: That’s right, we did!
CBFirestarter: [00:22:00] Yeah. So with this fic I wasn’t like, the BDSM part was kind of almost secondary when I was starting to plot this out. I was much more focused on the horse aspect of it. Cuz I’d known for a long time that, you know, I wanted to write a story involving horses and I think. because I am a horse owner, I’ve been in the saddle since I was about two. And I’ve owned my horse Artex, who is the love of my life for the past 20 years, almost 21.
And so horses are a huge part of my life. Being a horse mom is like you know, an identity to me. And so I have very strong opinions on it. You know, I think like fandom, horse people have very strong opinions on horse things. I think it’s definitely one of those things where I’ve read so many terrible horse stories and seen so many terrible horse movies where it’s just like, “Ugh,” and you just cringe.
So I was a little nervous to write a story with horses in it. I think it was one of those things I wanted to do, but I was [00:23:00] like, oh, it needs to be the right time. And so when I thought about it, I was thinking a lot about Dean after Kevin gets killed by Gadreel as far as like canon timeline when he takes the mark, and that was really the Dean that I was wanting to write, and I thought a lot about that Dean was just a very guilt ridden person, who carried a lot of survivor’s guilt and a lot of trauma and was kind of feeling like he was walking that path alone in that part of the story, cuz him, and at least in canon, him and Sam were, you know, not getting along well. And you know, Sam was pretty pissed at him and being a jerk and, you know, yeah we all know the canon.
So I kind of took that Dean and I thought, well, what’s similar to that? And I thought, you know, there’s a lot of veterans coming back from war dealing with PTSD, and I really firmly believe that horses and animals can be a huge help in people who are dealing with mental [00:24:00] health struggles. And I was like, well, this could be a perfect combination, right?
Put, you know, put Dean with these horses and see if we can’t heal him from this, you know, trauma that he’s been through. And the more I thought about it I thought, you know, BDSM kind of fits for this too. And I don’t wanna get on too long of of a ramble on this guy, so you’ll have to cut me off.
I talked too long about it, but I had watched the Brene Brown special and had listened to her book Dare Greatly. And in that she talks a lot about vulnerability and how it’s like… It seems like a weakness, but really being vulnerable is an incredibly brave, courageous thing to do. And you’re taking a risk.
And she talks about how war veterans are, often when they’re in the field and they’re fighting, they’re not allowed to be vulnerable because it’s life or death. And if they allow themselves to be vulnerable, [00:25:00] they could get killed. So they often struggle when they return back to civilian life to be vulnerable with the people in their lives because they’ve been trained and kind of built up to be, you know, kind of hardened from vulnerability, which means that they can’t connect with people.
And that is, is often a big struggle for them. And I was kind of intrigued by that because to me with BDSM, you have to be vulnerable with your partner. You have to be open and kind of exposed and kind of take that risk of trust to form that connection. So to me, the two just… I’d watched the special, and I think I’d been reading about BDSM and I, and the whole story kind of just came together.
I was like, yes. I’m like the horses, this, you know, connected relationship with BDSM that Cas could have with him you know, can help Dean find a way to heal, you know, and [00:26:00] to. find a way to build a new life for himself with his PTSD struggle. And while I know a lot about horses from personal experience my partner, my husband, delved a lot with PTSD.
So I had a lot of secondhand knowledge of that specific mental health issue. And I have never, I do not engage in BDSM, but I’ve certainly researched it a lot. And I would say that as far as the army and war veterans go, that was probably the area I had the least knowledge on. So I had to do a lot of research.
And actually I did… a friend of mine is a veteran himself and , I certainly didn’t tell him about the fic I was writing. I was like, can I just is this a thing? Is this like something that’s offered at a VA like ? And I would ask my husband, you go check with this friend Tim, who had done several tours in Afghanistan as a war medic.
And he would come back to me. He’s like “yeah, that’s what he says” and I’m like, okay, cool. Thanks for checking[00:27:00] . Try and use him to get my, you know, although I certainly don’t claim by any means that it was perfect, you know, again, this is fiction and you know, I’m not gonna spend a year researching this stuff.
I kind of always, if I’m not as knowledgeable in an area, I kind of try and be as vague as I can. So I don’t stick my foot in my mouth basically. But yeah, once I had that idea in my head that Dean needed to learn how to be vulnerable again and to connect, then the horses and the BDSM just seemed like this perfect marrying of, you know, helping his character on that journey.
Ellen: Yeah. So, and you did actually like with you know, caring for the horses in learning how to you know, especially they’re looking after Cash, the horse that they’re trying to rescue, and rehabilitate. The scenes in this one and the care that Cas takes of them, the whole story ends up being really soft.
I feel like it’s such a nice [00:28:00] warm and soft relationship, even though some of the time he’s obviously tied up and being spanked or whatever.
Mal: he’s, it’s so soft. It is. I remember one of your office notes, you actually commented that you think this, like the softest BDSM you’ve ever written As I went on, like each chapter, I was just like melting a little bit more. Like it is so soft. It’s lovely,
CBFirestarter: it’s so soft. It really was, it was a very soft fics and I felt like it was needed. you know, I felt like for this specific story and this specific character, he would get the most out of a BDSM relationship that was on the softer side. Yep. You know, where the scenes were a little bit more about caregiving and Cas caring for him, caring for his body, letting Dean just be open and vulnerable, and knowing that he was safe doing that.
And reinforcing that over and over again as well as, you know, just having some, you know, hopefully mind blowing sex for the two of them. Yeah. [00:29:00] But yeah, as opposed to some of my other fics and other BDSM relationships where it was more about challenging each other and, you know, exploring new fun and exciting things and that’s, you know, a very different…they were looking for different things out of, you know, the same kind of relationship.
So yeah, this turned into one of my super soft stories, but I’m not sorry about it.
Ellen: Yeah. They do also have really lovely like a loving relationship too. Like none of the angst in the story is from their relationship. It’s just, it’s external things happening that creates the attention and or except when Dean kind of gets sort of a subdrop situation where he’s bringing it out of himself kind of thing, you know? But otherwise, yeah.
CBFirestarter: yeah. And I don’t know if as writers either of you have ever done this with a story, but, for me, this story started with the scene where Dean is in the barn and, you know, I think Sam had [00:30:00] invited Benny over without telling Dean. And Dean got upset and ran to the barn and was just completely having a panic attack and losing his shit and just pounding away at a bale of hay or something.
And, you know, Cas kind of forces him to relinquish control and just let Cas take care of him. And that scene had been in my head like months before I started writing the fic and I kept thinking to myself when I was writing it at the beginning, I’m like, I just have to get to that scene.
And if I can just get to that scene where Dean is just at a breaking point and Cas is there to catch him, then I’ll be off and running with this story. So that was the big scene for me, like mentally. And then after I got past it, I’m like, well, now what do I do? What do I do with these boys?
I have Dean broken down, ready to let. Take care of him cuz he’s just at his wit’s end. And now I’m like, oh, now here comes the hard work of writing but .
Mal: . Yeah. I’ve [00:31:00] definitely had that experience before. A fic has been built around a scene, which oftentimes isn’t even that close to the beginning.
Like you have to do quite a bit of work. Even just to get there.
CBFirestarter:. Yeah. And you’re like so excited trying to write to get to that scene and then you get there and you’re like, whew. Huge relief. But now like now I have to keep writing cuz that was in the middle.
Mal: Yeah. Now I have to finish the thing? Dang.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. And I will say that some of the horses in the story are based on real horses I’ve known. And some of them are kind of an amalgamation of horses I’ve known.
Mal: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that, specifically about Lou in this story , I was like, is he based on somebody?
CBFirestarter: Lou is very much a real horse. A friend of mine in college, it was a horse that she owned and he was a devil pony. Just, I mean, I love tend to pieces, but, you couldn’t walk by him without him trying to nip at your shirt. He knew how to twist his head and he would snap the cross ties when you weren’t looking and just trot away with a laugh on his face.
[00:32:00] And he used to do this one thing when I was riding where. He had a round pen panel fencing, which is like this kind of metal rod fencing. And he stuck his leg through the fence and then twisted his body to make it look like his leg was stuck. And the first time I saw him do this, I leapt off of my saddle off my own horse and ran over to him like, “don’t break your leg!”
And then he just pulled his leg outta the fence and turned and looked at me like, haha. And I was like, you jerk. And I get back in the saddle and he does it again. And I again jump off don’t hurt yourself. And then he pulled it back out the second I got there, I’m like, oh, this is a game.
Mal: Yep, doing it just because he can.
CBFirestarter: He also crawled in the wheelbarrow when I was cleaning his paddock once.
Ellen: Oh, I just read that part!
CBFirestarter: Yeah, I just heard this thk thunk and I turn around and look and he’s got two front feet in the wheelbarrow. I’m like, you’re gonna break the wheel. It’s not meant to hold a pony! And his back leg was going like he was gonna [00:33:00] circus horse stand in this wheelbarrow.
I’d never seen anything like Lou. He chased me around the paddock with a huge stick in his mouth one time. I swear he was a dog. He was one of the most entertaining horses I met. And when I thought about this story, I’m like, I can’t not write Lou into this story just a little bit. Cause I don’t think people who don’t know or own horses can realize how much personality they have.
Like they’re all such individuals and they can… some of them are real characters.
Ellen: They’re like big toddlers.
CBFirestarter: Lou certainly an obnoxious one. Yes. Toddlers! My horse is certainly a toddler. He is a ladies man. He is a very social butterfly. Will come running up to the paddock to greet me with a whinny.
And he doesn’t have a mean bone in his body, but he’s also the biggest chicken on the planet. So , you know, I don’t know if you know this, there’s invisible monsters in the woods and they like to hide in the scary corner of the riding ring. And Oh, turkeys will eat a horse, you know, a squirrel that jumps out of a bush could eat a horse
You know, so it’s his job to [00:34:00] make sure we don’t get eaten by these things. And he’s very good at his job very quick, whether I want him to be or not. So ,
Mal: he sounds lovely.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. Decaf was a horse from my childhood that I took a lot of beginner lessons on. And Sugar is actually a horse that my barn right now who I just madly love and it’s one of my husband’s favorite horses at the barn cuz he’s like, “I can lead her in.”
I’m like, “yes honey, she’s the one that you can lead in cause I can trust you to lead her in and she’s not gonna drag you to go eat grass or get spooked and scare you or something.” Cuz he’s a pretty, he’s learned about horses, but he is not a horse guy. So Sugar’s I think is like the husband’s safe horse.
So I had I think I had ca riding sugar a lot but yeah, it was really fun to get to kind of put those horses in there and put their personalities into the story.
Mal: I particularly loved Cash because he reminded me a little bit of a horse, but that we don’t have currently, but one that we used to foster and his name was Tobacco and he [00:35:00] was incredibly…just most of the horses we get are very skittish and scared to start with and very withdrawn. But that horse was so responsive as as soon as he trusted you, that was it.
CBFirestarter:, he was an in your pocket guy after that.
Mal: Yes. He would follow you around. Just be like, Hey, what we doing ? Like he was lovely.
But you just had to get him to that point, you know, you just had to. You had to get that trust going. And he also was not a good jumper. So when I read that. I was like,
Mal: is this my horse?
CBFirestarter: (laughs) yeah. I loved riding Cash. Cash is… in a lot of ways, Cash is a lot of Artex. My horse is similar personality of, you know, once he trusts you, he is good to go and he’s, you know, very people oriented.
The rolling in the mud. My horse is a white horse now, and he just, him and mud are just, and everybody at the barn says it. They’re all like, he’s the white horse. And he is always the dirtiest. I’m like, I know. It’s and my farm owner said, she’s he’s just he rolls like [00:36:00] every day, like more than once.
I’m like, oh, I know. I’m like, I could come to the barn and brush him twice a day. He would still be covered in mud at least 50% of the day at some point. You know, I think writing that one scene where Cash was rolling in the mud, like that was an ode to Artex. But cuz I considered writing Artex as the horse in this story.
But in the end I was just like, if I do that, I’m going to write way too much about the horse and forget about Dean and Cas because if I was to write about Artex, cuz he’s just my, you know, my horse soulmate. I’m like, I can’t write about Artex. It would just, it would, I’d be way too, I would just get consumed with it.
So I was like, I’m gonna ride a horse that’s very similar to Artex but not Artex. So that’s kind of how Cash came about. Cuz I haven’t actually known a Cash, but he’s definitely as close as I could get without being consumed to my own horse.
Mal: So, so you pretty much just made Dean fall in love with Artex, is what you’re saying?
CBFirestarter: I did. And who wouldn’t?[00:37:00] Giving Cash to Dean in the fic was just, it made my own heart happy.
Mal: Yes. I loved that. I loved how you ended that whole arc with the Xash drama, shall we say to not overly spoil it for people, but, yep. Yep. Yeah, I loved how you chose to end that and you kept us hanging until right the last second there.
CBFirestarter: I know
Mal: . But no, it was lovely. I loved it. I cheered a little bit.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I was like, everyone would, I think I must have said it like a hundred times during the fic, too, in the author’s note and the comments, I’m like, guys, nothing really bad is gonna happen to these horses. I promise. Like this isn’t gonna be like Black Beauty.
You’re not gonna have to get a bag of tissues like it’s gonna be okay. I’m like, it’s funny ‘cause I can kill human characters pretty easily. But when it comes to animals Exactly. It’s just like you can’t mess the animals.
Mal: You can do mcd fics like whatever you want. You can put these people through hell [00:38:00] but do not touch the fucking animals.
CBFirestarter: Exactly. . Yeah. I felt very strongly about that. And in one version of this fic, I think there was one chapter I wrote that I ended up ditching and rewriting, but I had kind of a comical goat that lived on the farm.
Ellen: Ah yes, we love a comical goat!
CBFirestarter: I have a comical goat kind of mimicked after my friend’s goat Darwin. And then I was like, you know what? I just don’t feel like the humor fits the story right now. And I was like, no I can’t. I’m like, and I’m gonna save him for another story cuz I do think that would be super funny.
Mal: Yes. Don’t make us miss out on that .
CBFirestarter: I ended up writing with the chickens in Cage Your Cock in that one shot that I wrote. Got some other farmyard animals involved.
Mal: that one was funny.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. Oh God. I had so much fun writing that way more than I should have.
Ellen: I just remember laughing all the way through that one.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I was like, I don’t know if this is just gonna be a humor [00:39:00] piece or if it will actually be sexy at all at the end, but , I feel like 80% of that one shot was funny.And then the last bit was kind of funny. it worked out.
Mal: No, I was gonna say that even though the BDSM in War Wounds is quite soft and kind of gentle really, and I very much agree that it needed to be , like it’s what works for that fit. But it’s no less sexy to read because of it . It’s lovely.
CBFirestarter: Thank you
Mal: Especially the scene where, I think it’s the, one of their first kind of four scenes that we see where, or the first scene where Cas actually fully binds Dean and fucks him on the bed. , I was just like, yeah, I could read this a few more times. I might just bookmark this one for later.
Ellen: I’ll be in my bunk.
Mal: I like the way that it was done because it was clear. This is a big thing for me when people are doing any kind of writing with [00:40:00] bdsm, really, like there is a lot that can be going on. People can be bent in weird, unusual positions with limbs everywhere and it’s not gonna be like, you know, when you’re reading a normal sex scene, you’ve got like a few different positions to choose from where you can kind of visualize fairly easily what people are doing. And I feel like with bdsm, you’re in like a whole other arena
CBFirestarter: oh man for that you feel like you wanna have to draw a picture just so you don’t miss something, right? It’s can you bend that way? I mean, they can now , right? I mean, I can’t be the only person who has literally stretched my arms and been like, can I reach that area of my body?
Yes. Okay, well, but that’s really uncomfortable. I could not hold that for 20 minutes. Cause there’s nothing that’ll take you out of a sex scene so quickly if all of a sudden they’re like doing it, they’re like doggy style, you know, he is pounding him from behind and then, you know, and then all of a sudden they’re like flipped and you’re like, wait, he can’t suck his nipple while he’s fucking him from behind.
It doesn’t, you can’t, he can’t reach that.
Ellen: Maybe if you’re really agile?
CBFirestarter: [00:41:00] man. , right? And I’m like, so I try to be super careful about that stuff. And then, and yeah, and BDSM adds this whole other layer when you start talking about bondage and then you start talking about toys and it’s you know, when it comes to bondage, like you have to make sure that the characters are checking in on circulation, on the limbs.
Ellen: They’re not moving their arms when they’re tied
CBFirestarter: that there’s safety shears involved
Ellen: you don’t lose a vibrator.
CBFirestarter: Yes, exactly. There’s some safety stuff
Mal: tapered ends, Ellen, please!
CBFirestarter: my husband’s a paramedic. He has told me quite the many “sex sent me to the ER” stories and they’re all quite interesting. I’ve given me many an idea for fan fics, but
But yeah, it’s. It. You know, like even recently when we’re writing Whiplash me and my co-author, you know, I had to message them and I was like, Hey, remember you can’t put a cock cage on a hard cock. It [00:42:00] doesn’t work. It needs to be soft. Then you can put it on. So you have to figure out how to get that cock soft before you put the cage on.
It’s ah, logistics yeah, thinking, but logistics matter. If I’m reading it and I know I’ve done my research, I know those things. So I’m just like, if I see someone put like a hard metal bent cock cage onto a hard cock, I’m like, you can’t fit it. The whole point of the cage is to keep it from doing that.
So you can’t get it in there. And see, here comes the penis talk part of the podcast. So just got us there.
Ellen: Well, TCB is like the one of the most creative-thinking writers that I know. So I’m sure she was all over that one, working out how to…
Mal: You want it soft? It’ll be soft!
CBFirestarter: Oh, yeah. No, there was a lot of other things you going on.
Well, that’s what we’re there for each other, you know? But yeah, she would go, oh no, CB you’ve gotta take the panties off. Like you’re just have them screwing and you forgot to do that. And I’d be like, oh no, I did. Yeah. And then, you know, and then I’ll catch her on something like that. So there are benefits to a [00:43:00] co-author, I will say.
Especially when dealing with such complex logistics that you run into with BDSM. Yes. Or you can just have an amazing editor like I do with you, Ellen. So I get to be spoiled because I know that you’re very good at checking on logistics and making sure. I’m pretty sure you’ve stopped me before and been like, can they work?
Does that fit that way? Wouldn’t the belly be in the way.
Ellen: That’s the most fun part, honestly. Trying to work all that. I love it. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: All the logistics, right. And I’m like, well, if I can’t figure it out, how are they going to get figure it out. Like
Mal: I’m looking forward to this ‘cause I have never co-written BDSM specifically before, which I am now currently doing. So quite, yeah, I’m excited about that. Cause we haven’t gotten quite to that bit yet. . . But I’m looking forward to it. I feel like it’d be kind of a fun dynamic to co-write that with somebody I’ve co-written with them before [00:44:00] in just normal fic
CBFirestarter: I definitely, you know, TrenchcoatBaby. I went to her during war wounds a few times and I was like, wanted to cry and I’m like, can you just write the cast part for me please? I miss you. I have to write it all by myself. I have to write the whole thing. I’m like, I really miss you right now.
And she was just like, you’ve got this, you know how to write. I’m like, I know…
Mal: But there’s nothing better than when you wake up in the morning and there’s a chunk more fic in the doc than when you went to sleep. It’s the best feeling in the world.
CBFirestarter: Right. It’s so awesome. But it’s I think cuz when I co-write with her, I tend to I tend to write the Dean perspective and she writes the Cas perspective.
So I really I was in that mode of just thinking about Dean. And really War Wounds definitely does focus more on Dean and Dean’s journey. So sometimes I would struggle when I had to get to my Cas pov, like getting into his mindset. Yeah. And so [00:45:00] I would kind of reach out to her sometimes and be like, can you like
God, I wish I could write Dom Cas as good as you. She was just like, you can, you could do this.. I’m like, I’ve been so spoiled. I didn’t have to write this part before. I haven’t had to do that. .
Mal: Well, you did a great job with it. All the Cas stuff was very enjoyable, so
CBFirestarter: thank you.
Yeah. I feel like I definitely got there. I had some moments mid fic where I had to shake my brain up and do that, walk around the room and get back into the jive of things. And then once I kind of, you know, got one or two chapters out again, I was like, all right, now I’m feeling it.
Mal: I really like stories where we get to see dominant POV because it’s tends to, I’ve noticed, be slightly kind of tilted towards most of the time we get submissive pov. So I like it when I get to
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I love Dom perspective and I think you’re right. I think Submissive perspective is far more popular.
So I love getting to read a scene from the Dom perspective. I do think [00:46:00] that’s where, it’s an area that TrenchcoatBaby does excel in. And I love getting to read a scene from the Dom perspective, so yeah. , but it’s harder. I’m definitely… It’s much more difficult for me. It doesn’t come quite as naturally.
I think I enjoy mentally being in the submissive mindset. It just my mind does that feeling and sensation easier. you know, which I guess makes sense. Like I tend to, you know, when I’m writing a smut scene I prefer writing the bottom than the top. You know, like it, sometimes writing what you know is a little bit easier.
Right. So . Yeah. Right.
Mal: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Okay.
.
Well you managed to do it very effectively in this one, particularly in terms of Cas’s thoughts about not just the sexual aspect of it, but caring for Dean in a way that is going to help heal him. And, you know, it’s not correct to say make him better cuz it’s not that simple, but his time with Cas definitely does help a lot . [00:47:00]
CBFirestarter: Yes.
Mal: Which I thought was awesome because that, while it’s not something that your regular health department is gonna send you a subscription for, it is something that exists in the world. There are actually I know there is a center in California somewhere called the Light Dark Institute where they do genuinely do things like this.
CBFirestarter: That’s amazing. Yeah. I’ve heard about it, but I don’t think I’ve researched enough to have found that, but now I’m like gonna go Google that
Ellen: because that’s basically what you wrote about in Whiplash, right? ,
CBFirestarter: yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s, but I do feel very strongly that there are a lot of psychological benefits that people do find from these relationships.
A lot of anxiety relief, a lot of stress relief and you know, help with depression and release of endorphins. And there’s a lot of benefits to these relationships that you know, like you said, it’s not like you can go get a prescription from your doctor and a referral to find a dom, but… that doesn’t mean there can’t be benefits to those relations.
Mal: Now there’s [00:48:00] a fic idea. Someone write that with me. , right? Someone write that au with me.
CBFirestarter: I almost did with our therapist fic? A Different Kind of Therapy. Right?
Mal: That’s right, I loved that one. Yep.
CBFirestarter: Yeah, that one was fun. I was like, this is outside of ethical bounds of being a therapist. You can’t,
Mal: Let’s put that right in the front.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. You can’t just jump and be their dom. That’s. You know, it crosses an ethical line,
Ellen: but what if you did?
CBFirestarter: It’s fiction, right? It’s just
Mal: that’s the fun part with fanfic though though, isn’t it? The what if part?
CBFirestarter: So, yes. Yep. And I did cover… because I figured, you know, Dean needed actual professional help along with the horses and the BDSM.
So, I did have him do EMDR which I got a lot of feedback in the comments from a lot of people who commented that they had actually gone through EMDR themselves and their experiences with it. And it kind of just turned in this whole talking point with some of the readers and the comments, which is something I just love [00:49:00] about ao3 is getting to interact with people.
Ellen: So, can you just remind us what that actually is? It’s like hypnotherapy type thing, right?
CBFirestarter: Yeah, it’s a really interesting treatment for posttraumatic stress disorder. And I’ve known people who have gone through it and it’s can be done in different ways. Often there’s a light bar that bounces back and forth or you know, and the person I know in their instance they held onto paddles in their hands, like little bar handles that would kind of vibrate.
But the idea behind it is that you sit with a therapist and you take a traumatic event that has this really strong emotional connection to it in your mind, that’s your traumatic and you talk through it with your therapist. And when you start to feel that rise of emotion or that rise of anxiety they, you know, either jiggle the paddles or they, you know, a sound will beep in your ear, but what it does is that you’re taking that memory out of long term into short term and [00:50:00] you’re breaking the emotion away from the memory and then the memory gets stored back in long term without having that powerful emotional connection to it.
Sounds simple, but it’s definitely a very difficult therapy for people to go through. But it’s very effective. It can help a lot when people have a specific traumatic event that they can kind of walk through and detach that emotion from it and kind of restore it. Unfortunately it can take a couple tries sometimes, you know, the symptoms from PTSD can get worse in the process before it gets better.
So it’s, it can be a daunting task. And I do know that from my reading and research that like people who have trouble dissociation sometimes can’t find a benefit from it because they can, they just dissociate too much to be able to detach the emotion from the memory. Yeah. But it’s a really amazing therapy and having, you know, a partner who went through that and really struggled with it to see him really just [00:51:00] heal so well from his trauma in such a short amount of time with just a couple of visits it was life saving for us and for my family anyways.
And so it was just, it was a therapy that I personally was very connected to and felt like, man, more people should know about this because this could really help a lot of people . So I was like, I’m gonna put this in my story. You know, and I am not a mental health professional, so this is not mental health advice at all.
Just anecdotal story. But that was my, you know, it was a personal, this whole fic was very personal for me, I guess I could say.
Mal: I’m glad you put that in there though. I think that was really important. Cause it could have been very easy for you to just focus on the BDSM aspect and just hand wave the rest and just say, okay, well Dean went to therapy offscreen a bunch of times and it was fine.
Yeah. You know, it, it could have been easy to do that. And I love the fact that you didn’t, and you represented the fact that Dean is having to work in. Multiple areas of his life, really, like most people do. When they’re having any kind of mental health challenge, [00:52:00] really.
CBFirestarter: Exactly. And I didn’t want it to be about fixing him, you know, I didn’t want it to be about Dean being broken.
I wanted it to be, you know, a little bit about learning how to live with, you know, a little bit of that anxiety and some of that PTSD because for a lot of people, most people there, there’s no perfect cure for those things. So some of it is just learning how to live your life and live with those things.
So I feel like that was kind of important to me too. I didn’t want some like fairytale doves flying out of the wings and oh, he’s magically cured and he’s never gonna have a nightmare again. You know? Yeah, no but more that he like found people he could trust and share his difficulties with and, you know, kind of broaden his support system and broaden his own coping mechanisms and strengthen his ability to cope with what his trauma was.
So, I don’t know. I hope I did that justice anyways cuz it was important to me amidst. You [00:53:00] know, ball gags and rope stuff. Yeah. , I think him being the cock warmer on Cas’s lap while they watched that documentary, that was one of my favorite scenes.
Mal: I really did enjoy that. Especially… I love the idea of the rope attached to the bottom of the couch. I was there like, huh, can I get over that one? Okay. .
CBFirestarter: Yep. , yep. That was a good one. I lot of, again I’m surprised I don’t have a sketch pad at this point with just really rough stick figure drawings on it. , I wish I was an artist. I don’t have that skill.
Mal: No. I really liked how kind of carefully you represented all of that.
I also loved the fact that the type of dominant that you chose for Cas to be in this worked so well with it all. Because just reading through it, at no point did Cas ever tell Dean that he was fine and there was nothing wrong. Instead, he just told him he [00:54:00] was still wonderful how he is.
Ellen: And he was safe.
Mal: That was like, yeah that he was safe, that he could trust him and that how he is now. Is okay even if it’s not how he was before. Yeah. And I think that was huge for, I thought that was, yeah, that was, it’s a big thing for our Dean . But yeah, I thought you represented it really well. Cuz there are probably, you know, multiple ways you could have come at that.
But it all just works together so well then it’s just got that lovely sprinkle of, like I said, lots of face fucking and vibrating butt plugs and it’s wonderful .
CBFirestarter: ‘Cause who doesn’t love that stuff?
Mal: Yes, exactly. So trauma horses and face fucking. Go read War Wounds.
CBFirestarter: I want it all just like Dean.
Mal: And you deserve it all. Just like Dean. Yes.
CBFirestarter: Aw
I Wanna Get Outside (Of Me)
Mal: All right. So the next fic that we’re going to discuss is a big, chunky boy. This is, [00:55:00] I Wanna Get Outside (Of Me) by emwebb17. This is 142,000 words. So it is, I would say a decently long, fic given the standards of our fanum. It’s not that big, but it’s pretty chunky.
Ellen: I would say big. I think over a hundred thousand, that must be a long fics.
Mal: Over a hundred. Yeah, definitely a long fic. At least for me, I adore this fic and it does not feel that long when I’m reading it. But, okay, so here is the summary, which has some interesting links to what CB was writing about, but completely on the other side.
“Dean is a novice in the dom/sub world asked by his employer as a desperate last resort to be a sub for his recluse of a brother, Castiel. Castiel is a diagnosed OCD suffering from PTSD and agoraphobia, mysphobia, and…”
Oh, I love how this author just assumes I know how to pronounce that. I’m gonna butcher it. I’m sorry, emwebb17.
And something else that he suffers from, another phobia.
“Needless to say—he’s a mess who hasn’t stepped out of his home in literally seven years. The only times Gabriel can see traces of the way his brother used to be is when he feels in control—specifically when he has control over a sub. However, due to his idiosyncrasies and paranoia, keeping a sub around has been impossible. Enter Dean, who’s not a very traditional submissive, to try his hand at subbing for the hermit.”
Ellen: this is sort of a bit of a classic cuz it was published way back in like 2015. So
Mal: yeah it’s an older one.
Ellen: So yeah, Castiel lives in a top of a building in a great big apart, like a condo basically, where he kicks the windows, like the blinds drawn on the windows.
And everyone has to remove their shoes and have a bath basically before he’ll allow them inside because he’s terrified of the germs. But he does… as this fic goes on, he opens up gradually. And you know, he doesn’t, he’s not completely fixed by the end, but, you know…not fixed. I mean, he’s not[00:57:00] out in the outside world too much by the end, but I think he does actually go leave his apartment at certain points in the fic.
CBFirestarter: yeah. Yeah, I thought this author did a great job of again, kind of connecting the world of BDSM with mental health issues. Cuz you know, with Cas it’s… he has a need for control and a lot of his phobias stem from that fear of a lack of control. And so being able to control a submissive is, you know, very calming and relaxing for him because most of his phobias stem from a fear of that lack of control.
So I thought that was a really cool way that they approached writing this. I was like, when I read the description of it, the first time I read it, I was just like, oh wow, this sounds like really interesting. And I devoured it the first time, devoured it the second time and devoured it the third time.
I’m pretty sure I’ve read this fic three or four times. It’s definitely one of my top fics. So . [00:58:00]
Mal: Yeah it’s really well done. They don’t shy away from Cas’s issues ever in this, they are kind of quite front and center for all of the fic. And especially at the beginning, Dean doesn’t really understand them.
It’s probably an important point that in this one Dean is specifically going into being Cas’s sub for money to start with. Once he meets Cas, you know, starts changing. It is a Dean/Cas fic, after all . But that’s not his initial motivation to be there is very much a job that he is going to or that he seems to be under the impression that to start with, that he will pretty much just be able to clock in and out of, without any issue.
Kind of learns that might not be the case.
Ellen: And then he catches feelings.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I love it when they catch feelings.
Ellen: the interesting thing about this one with Dean is that he is a stripper and like a, he does do scenes in a BDSM club at the beginning [00:59:00] now and then. But he goes into this… and even though they have their contract negotiation at the beginning where they list out all the things that they’re willing to do and explore and all that kind of thing, the communication isn’t perfect in this, that he does get sort of resentful and, you know, he doesn’t know what’s happening for some of the time, he just has to sit there while Cas works and you know, there’s not quite the level of communication that perhaps they should have had,
Mal: yeah, no, it’s definitely an imperfect relationship even though they are going into it with the best of intentions. I think like Cas has his reasons for setting his boundaries, but realistically it turns out down the line, they’re not really ones that work very well for them.
CBFirestarter: I think that’s what gives this fic some realism to it though. I mean, characters are imperfect. It’s what we love about them. They mess up and they make mistakes. And even when we’re talking about BDSM relationships where, you know, we like reading fic where they’re following all the rules, they’re doing all the safe [01:00:00] words and there’s perfect communication.
But even people who are trying to do all of that in the real world, there’s miscommunication. Things happen. Even when you’re being as careful as you can, you know, and I think Dean’s confusion which we get a lot of Dean just being like, what is going on right now? Is I think normal and it kind of humanizes the characters a little bit and
Ellen: Yeah, that’s right. It adds a bit extra, kind of realism to his reactions to things. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: and I found it easy to kind of get into Dean’s shoes and I was kinda like, yeah, what is Cas doing? What is Cas thinking? And I became as kind of like interested in Castiel and his mindset and what drove his actions and decisions as Dean was.
And I kind of felt like I was, had a camaraderie with Dean while reading the story and that I wanted to understand Cas more. Yeah. And I think this writer did a good job of kind of making us fall for Cas as Dean did.
Mal: Yeah. They did a really good job of that.
Ellen: It’s totally from Dean’s point of view, right?
CBFirestarter: [01:01:00] Yes, it is. I think it is.
Mal: Yeah. But I actually really enjoyed Cas in this fic. Like I found parts of him in this, like I do not have PTSD. I’m like, I can’t relate to any of the particular things that he’s going through, but I think the author did a really good job of making him a very human dominant . Somebody who is always going to try their best for their submissive, but he is not perfect.
He’s not a perfect person. He has his own issues and flaws and sometimes they’re gonna get in the way. And there are, I think, more than one point in this fic where Cas actually, you know, recognizes that the effect he’s having on Dean is not positive and that he’s doing things wrong and he actually tries to kind of break off their agreement completely.
Dean’s not having it, but . But he does try to do that. And I liked the fact that in this story, while Cas maintains all, you know, his [01:02:00] very dominant persona for, you know, most of the time that they are together, he’s not perfect. He is just a flawed human being like everybody else. And even Dean doesn’t see him in that kind of, doesn’t idolize him in that way, which you know, is very nice to happen in scenes between, you know, dominant and submissive. You want to kind of sometimes feel that kind of slight idolization of it. It’s, it kind of adds to it. It’s wonderful, it’s what some people want, but I actually really enjoyed in this, that Cas is that much more flawed and kind of broken in his own way.
CBFirestarter: Yeah.
Ellen: Another thing that makes Dean more relatable perhaps is that he at a certain point in the fic he feels like they start doing kind of masochistic kind of things and Dean starts actually really enjoying it. And then he is is there’s something wrong with me because I like being hit.
You know, and I think that’s probably quite relatable to a lot of people. You think I shouldn’t be enjoying this, but I kind of am. You know? And, but, and Cas tells him like, there’s not, there’s nothing wrong with you for this. Like this [01:03:00] just is what you like. It’s fine. You’re fine. Like it helps him to let go of that kind of thing.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. Yeah. I think this author handles the sub drop topic very well. And like you were saying Ellen, that it, it’s often, you know, that the character feels like some sense of shame around the actions that they’ve done afterwards. Once your endorphins have kind of worn off and the adrenaline rushes over and it’s like you get that kind of like stomach drop feeling that like empty feeling and without proper aftercare you can end up with sub drop or even Doms can have Dom drop.
And yeah, I think I always like the fics that deal with that. The fics that kind of just address it head on. And kind of show like the right and the wrong way I guess, to deal with it. Like I don’t always mind when they necessarily, you know, like Dean is just like in a drop and not getting the help he needs because he’s not asking for it, and then showing that when he does ask for it, look at how much better it is.
[01:04:00] Yeah. Almost feel like it’s kind of like it then you get this huge sense of relief as a reader. Oh yes. Everyone, sometimes you just, yes, it’s this huge relief. It’s oh yes, that’s what you needed, Dean. See you just had to say, Hey, I feel like shit right now. I need a hug. Cause I think we all feel that way about canon Dean, right?
We’re like, Dean, sometimes you just need a hug. It’s okay. Say you need a hug, I bet Cas would hug you. He’s right there.
Mal: Cas would love it. He would jump in the opportunity. Come on now. . .
CBFirestarter: He’s ready.
Mal: I enjoyed all parts of this fic and all kind of different aspects of it, but I think the first time I read it, the point where it kind of elevated beyond a really good BDSM fic to just, one of my absolute favorite fics ever was the scene with the elevator and the fire that never was.
Once I hit that scene…Yes, so we’re obviously going like full spoilers on this. So, there is a scene where [01:05:00] obviously Cas is a hermit as we covered. He does not leave his apartment. I think Ellen already explained that, you know, he even has the windows covered and things like that. That there is a sudden scene where the fire alarms start going off in his building.
And it is heartbreaking really how the only thing he cares about is that making sure that Dean gets out and he has no plans to leave his apartment himself. And it’s kind of heartbreaking to see like how ingrained that fear is, that he would rather just sit there,
CBFirestarter: how crippling it can be for a person.
Mal: Yeah. I thought it was heartbreaking, but kind of good to see that represented, to see that this is, you know, a very serious thing. It’s not just oh no, he doesn’t like germs, he needs things cleaned. No, he has like a very serious kind of like trauma response going on here. And obviously I love the fact that Dean, our smart Dean that we have finds a way to flip the tables just enough and get Cas to use the trust that they have between them to [01:06:00] actually manage to get Cas out of the building, even if he does have to do it blindfolded. But
CBFirestarter: I think he threw a blanket over his head.
Mal: Yeah. All I remember is that Cas couldn’t see and then I just have this image of him just huddled up with Cas in this parking lot with people just probably staring at them like, what the fuck are they doing? but .
CBFirestarter: Yep. No, that was a great scene. I also, I thought as far as like scenes and stories that stick out to us, I think his punishment room stuck out to me so much.
Mal: Right. Pepto-bismol pink with the cats!
CBFirestarter: Right? And every time I think of BDSM punishment it’s oh, well I’m gonna spank you or it’s gonna be impact play or you know, maybe orgasm delay denial or something along those lines. And those are kind of your like go-tos for punishment. So when I saw that there’s other ways to make a person regret their decisions and that pink Bismol room, I was like, wow, I [01:07:00] never thought of that before.
And that was actually a huge inspiration for me when writing things like I can think outside the box when it comes to you know, the topic of… cuz not all BDSM relationships have like a punishment and consequences. So when you do include it, sometimes it’s well, how do you be original past like a good spanking, which we all love, right?
Team dean’s red ass, but . . But yeah, I think this f was definitely an inspiration for me to kind of try something different. I think even back in War Wounds, I had Dean like holding a set of books or something facing the corner. And that there are other ways to kind of explore that relationship.
So I thought that was just kind of a cool scene. I was very frustrated on Dean’s behalf, obviously. ‘Cause, I think he had to pick something up off the floor. I can’t even remember
Mal: He had to pick up tiny items off the floor. There was another one where he had to reenact the, I wanna say hysteria at some point.
Had to try and keep reading on camera while Cas was pretty busy . [01:08:00]
Ellen: Oh, that’s right.
CBFirestarter: That was a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Very creative writing in this story for sure.
Mal: I really liked that because a lot of times particularly in fanfic, punishment can kind of, can come across as almost just, oh, it’s an excuse for a spanking scene.
Which I’m never gonna complain about. There can never be too many of those, keep ’em coming. But it was nice to see the variety and also something that’s in a way more realistic, because that’s not gonna be a viable punishment for everybody. It’s not gonna be something that works for everybody.
It’s not gonna match, you know, every kind of dom/sub out there. Yeah, so it’s really nice to see, particularly in this one, the variety with that. ‘Cause also punishment within those kinds of relationships has different functions depending on the way that the relationships work and the specific dynamics that they have.
So not all punishment needs to be pain. In fact most of it probably isn’t, depending on whether your sub is a masochist or not. [01:09:00] But it was really nice to see everyone. I won’t go on for ages about that, but yes, I really loved the representation of doing things slightly differently in this one. It was brilliant.
Ellen: The other thing that I liked about this one, all that I thought was interesting was the relationship that Dean has with his dad. And like with Sam, even Sam’s a bit younger than he usually is in this one. He’s only 16 or 17. So,
Mal: yeah, cuz Dean is quite young in this
Ellen: so Dean just said like they think that he works at a bar all the time and like serving drinks kind of thing.
And he’s has a real sense of shame about what he actually does, which is fair enough. I guess if you think that you know, John Winchester is not known for his open mindedness in most fics.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. Well, it deals with the issue of sex work, right? And the you know, stigma and shame around that.
And I think Dean in this story is also had been a [01:10:00] submissive for hire, but he hadn’t necessarily engaged in a lot of sex, like sexual acts. Like I don’t think he’d actually had penetrative sex with the doms that he subbed for before Cas. So it was like taking that final step for him into true sex work.
And there was, and I know I’ve Ellen, I’ve spoken to you about this fic so much now I feel so guilty. But I did do a reread of Carry On, which is another fic that is extremely similar to the setup of this one in that it is Dean you know, being a sub for hire who basically comes and lives with Cas at night and then leaves every morning and is basically his submissive in the evenings and at nighttime.
So he has to lie to his family and say that he’s bartending across town and so he is gonna sleep at a friend’s place, but he’ll be back in the mornings and so it has kind of, that, that part of the story is very similar in both of these. Only in, in that story there’s no mental health [01:11:00] issues that Cas is dealing with.
Which I think makes this, you know, I Wanna Get Outside (Of Me) unique. But they’re both really well written and they both deal a lot with that shame that he’s dealing with. And also that when do you cross that line between, well this is a professional relationship, but I’m catching feelings and now what do I do about it?
So I always love that . I’m totally a sucker for that. Cause I’m just like, you know, “you love them. Like it matters more than the money. Just do it!” And it’s just like the little cheerleader reader, but…
Ellen: And there’s always the misunderstanding then from the person who’s paying the money, like they only like me because I’m paying them. You know?
CBFirestarter: exactly. And then are they really feel that way about me? And yeah. So there’s just all that internal turmoil.
Mal: I’m trying to think if there would be a specific, what would we call that trope without a long-winded explanation, because it’s what I love as well, but like, how would you succinctly say that? I don’t know.
Ellen: It’s just a misunderstanding.
CBFirestarter: [01:12:00] Not a clue.
Ellen: Assumptions
Mal: difficult one to tag for. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: Well that’s, I mean, probably 80% of our Destiel fanfic, I swear, got 80% of it is “he doesn’t like me as much as I like him. Does he? He couldn’t possibly.” And then the other character said, “oh, he doesn’t really like me as much as I like him. He couldn’t possibly like me.”
Ellen: It’s like probably 90% of romance in general, it’s all based on miscommunication.
CBFirestarter: In general. Yeah. I just,
Mal: Solid trope, yep
CBFirestarter: But it’s but there’s a reason, right? Like I think we all love to complain about it, but at the end of the day it’s
Ellen: oh no, that’s what we like.
CBFirestarter: It’s obviously we like it or wouldn’t be written this much.
Ellen: That’s right. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: But I like that this story had other conflict outside of that, that it wasn’t, like the whole story didn’t just revolve around their emotional will-they, won’t-they, but there was also like outside factors that were causing conflict for the characters. Like Cas’s mental [01:13:00] health struggles and Dean’s family issues with his dad and Sam and yeah I enjoyed that.
I always find those kind of fics a little bit more robust and I really enjoy them, so. Yep. Kudos to this author.
Mal: Yeah. I love the fact that when it comes down to it, they help each other in the end. Even if it was very much intended to start with that, you know, it was gonna be money for Dean and it would help Cas and that was all there would be to it, but in the end they very much both help each other.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. Well, yes, and correct me if I’m wrong, the spoiler, but Dean gets injured and Cas ends up at the hospital. The hospital, yeah. Stays a couple of nights and that was such a huge moment where it’s oh, he faced all of his fears because Dean mattered that much to him and I swooned really hard.
Mal: Yes. Like when he woke up in the hospital and Cas was there and even more like Dean, like being in Dean’s head in Dean’s POV when he woke up and realized Cas was there, then a groggy few moments later realized what that meant.[01:14:00] Yeah, it’s just, yep.
Ellen: “What are you doing here?”
CBFirestarter: Oh, so much romance. I just loved it.
Mal: It is like for everything else that it’s got going in it, this really is actually quite a romantic story in terms of their interactions with each other and the things that they go through for each other when they start. You know, at one point Cas gives Dean his phone number in case he needs, you know, anything, you know, that in case there’s another sub drop incident or anything else, or he needs him outside of his official hours.
And just their first phone call makes me a little bit mushy because they don’t really even say that much. They just kind of chat a little bit. But it’s, they’re pretty cute actually. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I think it’s a good representation of how a submissive can take care of a dominant and a dominant can take care of a submissive that it goes both ways.
Cuz I do think people might look at a, yeah. And people might look at a BDSM relationship and think, well, it’s a power exchange, right? So only one person’s in control, but really a submissive holds a [01:15:00] huge amount of power.
Mal: Yeah, it’s an exchange, it goes both ways.
CBFirestarter: Yeah, exactly. And it’s so I think that I love reading relationships like this where it, they really are caring for each other just in different ways. You know, Dean, by giving up that control and letting Cas have it, is his way of taking care of Cas. And you know, and Cas’s way of taking care of Dean is being there and saying, you don’t have to worry. You don’t have to make decisions. I can take care of that for you now. And I just love that
Mal: with a good Dom, a sub has a lot of power actually.
CBFirestarter: Exactly. They carry lots of power and they should in healthy relationship anyways.
Mal: Which is why for so many people being submissive in that way can be such an empowering thing. Which I very much love to see how is represented in this fandom. Like we do not forget that when we write fic in this fandom.
So especially not when we have Dean being a bratty little shit half the time. , [01:16:00]
CBFirestarter: we do love a bratty sub.
Mal: Dean. Dean is the perfect bratty sub. That’s,
Ellen: that tag is like right up there in the top tags.
CBFirestarter: That was a big tag. I’m not surprised that was on your list.
Mal: Yes. It’s just in his nature. What can we say?
Ellen: We should probably move along, because
Mal: I guess Yeah, we’ve been talking a long time.
Ellen: It’s alright. Sorry to rush things.
Mal: Do you wanna give us a quick go through of the next one?
Beg Pretty For Me
Ellen: Yeah, so we’ve got a couple of shorter ones that we were we were gonna talk about too. So this one is called Beg Pretty For Me, and it’s by kittimau, I assume that is how you pronounce it.
I’m so sorry, kitty, if I’m getting that wrong. This was just five and a half thousand words long and it was published during 2020. And the summary is like a clip, like a, you know, a bit out of the fic. So I’m just, I don’t want to go into full podfic mode here, but I’ll just read it anyway.
Team Free Will won, Dean and Cas are in love, and all is right with the world.
“Cas…” His eyes flutter closed, mind slipping into the warm, pleasant haze of that special place, the one that allows him release, relief. Peace. Heart pounding in his chest, he fights the temptation to touch himself through the delicate material because Cas hasn’t told him to yet and he wants to be good.
“I want to hear you say it, Dean.”
“Fuck…” He swallows thickly. “Yeah. I-I feel beautiful.”
Channeling my podfic voice there. Okay, so obviously this is like a canonverse, I guess post-canon. So this is involves Cas and Jack I think have gone off to on a case, and Dean and Sam are somewhere else. So they’re actually having a phone sex conversation basically in this fic. So, and I think the main thing that that I love about this and that I thought was the best part about it, was that they actually, not only do they have a phone sex, like [01:18:00] exchange but Dean is wearing panties in it and he takes photos and sends them to Cas while he’s, you know, getting off.
And I don’t think there’s any art in this, but it’s described so well that you basically get like a full on mental image of this thing. So I thought it was a really I don’t know, one of those a one shot that is described so well that you’re just like, wow, what did I,,,? This is like mind blowing
You get to the end and you’re like, okay, I’ll be in my bunk. You know, I don’t wanna be horny on main here, but, it’s really good!
Mal: one of the things I really like, well, one of the things I really like about any kind of BDSM that’s set in canon is the almost extra level of implicit trust, specifically when you have submissive Dean that he has to have to give Cas control.
Cuz especially after what happened with Michael in canon. Yeah. I just, it’s, I don’t know. It always comes across as ever so slightly [01:19:00] therapeutic to me. Like even if it’s not like specifically gone at from that angle, I just always see it as for Dean, like the, first of all, the sheer level of trust that he has in Cas to just allow him to be in control like that.
Which it is just something we love to see in general, but it’s also just a very good way I feel of the Dean to be able to give that control to somebody and have the trust that he is going to get it back when he needs it.
CBFirestarter: That makes sense. I mean, Dean’s a character who has the weight of the world on his shoulders. So I think that’s why it makes so much sense to me personally, to see him in that submissive role, why he would be drawn to that, you know, that chance to just not feel like everything and every decision is on him. So yeah, I’ve always thought that would be Dean canonically, like his biggest drive for wanting to do that and finding pleasure in that.
Mal: Yes. The BDSM that I am currently writing with Robin, Castielslostwings, [01:20:00] is canon. And it’s also kind of a post-canon, you know, they won, Chuck is gone, kind of deal. Before, before the confession happened, so. . One of the things that I think is quite fun to explore is that even in canon, Dean is very, you know, caring really very, he wants to look after other people.
That’s his love language really. He’s not so good at saying things, but he’s very service oriented. So the way that we are actually going about this is that we have it that Cas as a newly human entity, which is something else that you can bring into it when it’s canon has kind of not experienced a lot of these kind of new sensations before.
He’s, he doesn’t, you know, understand them. He’s trying to get his head around all of these sensations and he’s struggling with becoming human. He’s kind of, let’s say, slightly depressed at the beginning of the fic. He doesn’t have a purpose like he’s used to. And so they [01:21:00] actually start off with Dean attempting to Dom Cas because they think that maybe that will help him.
And it will kind of put him back in the head space that he was used to being in heaven with following orders and always having a purpose and knowing what to do. And just to say in this fic, that doesn’t quite, yeah, it doesn’t quite work out for them how they expect. It’s not a bad experience by any means, but it doesn’t work out from how they expect.
And in the middle of the fic, they do actually switch. Which is interesting. I don’t see that represented too much in fic but I did look it up. I was reading a few different studies and like at least 30% of most real life relationships like that are switch relationships. So I was like, hm!
CBFirestarter: yeah. I think switching is a lot more common in real life than it tends to be in fic. And I haven’t read a lot of good switching bdsm fics, so I, but I love the idea, I love the concept behind it. And the ones that I have read have been awesome, so , I’d love to read that.
Mal: Yeah. I’m very fond of any of this kind of stuff in a canon [01:22:00] setting because there are so many different ways where I can frame it, where it just seems to fit and I’m like, yeah, I can see that. I can see them doing that and yeah. I love it. So thank you very much for kittimau, for giving us, giving me more .
Ellen: I think one of the tags in this particular one is “porn with feelings”. So there’s a lot of good. Sort of thinking about how Cas knows exactly how to turn his, you know, push his buttons because he knows him so well and, you know, they’ve been through so much together and he basically pulled him outta hell and put him back together. So, you know, it’s yeah I liked the soft aspect to it as well as the sexy times.
Mal: Those are good fun, but you know, nobody knows Dean as well as Cas really on a very intimate atomic level. Well this one is very short, so I feel like we can’t say much more about it other than it’s really hot without spoiling it.
Ellen: No, that’s right. [01:23:00] Basically.
“Yes, Sir”
Okay, so this other, and another shorter one that we have been reading is called “Yes, Sir”. And it’s by Redamber79. This one is published in 2020, 6,000 words. I think Redamber usually writes a lot more of A/B/O verse type fics. Right?
Mal: they have lots of omegaverse, with a good sprinkling of BDSM, but mostly omegaverse. Sometimes both, I think at the same time.
Ellen: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. There is actually a fair proportion of fics that do combine them, actually. It’s an interesting combination of kind of biological urges and… without going into full like biological BDSM kind of format.
Mal: Yeah. Which we’ll have to revisit at one point by itself.
Ellen: This one is not A/B/O. So the summary just says:
Dean’s earned himself a spanking, but keeps losing the count. Cas decides it’s time to up the ante for his punishment.
Mal: [01:24:00] Yeah. So we were talking about punishment earlier, whereas this is actually a fic specifically centered around that. And it has CB’s favorite tag in the end there. “Team Dean Winchester’s Red Ass”. Yay!
CBFirestarter: Yes, it does. They also they use the stoplight system in this fic, which is I’ve come to really love that system for safe-wording. Mostly cuz you also have the color system. You can do the check in. So you can check in on consent with the partner, basically “what’s your color? Are you green? Meaning you’re good to go? Are you yellow? Do we need to pause and talk about it? Or are you red? And that’s safe wording and everything needs to come to a stop.” And I kind of love that flexibility to it because I think when I first started reading BDSM and they, you know, everybody in pop culture like knows, ooh, safe word, like it’s banana or it’s rutabaga.
Ellen: Impala!
CBFirestarter: Yeah. And it’s but it’s kind of limiting, right? Because the idea is
Mal: Impala every time. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: The idea is… Impala (always [01:25:00] Impala)… and is that you say the safe word and everything stops, but it doesn’t leave you as much room for the just checking in and saying, yes, I am good. Or saying I, I’m not wanna stop, but I do wanna maybe discuss what’s happening.
And I love that about the color system and I loved they wrote this in this, even though it’s you know, it’s kind of a shorter one shot sexy time. But I love the use of the color system in this cuz there’s a lot of Cas checking in with Dean on his color and making sure that he’s still consenting throughout the whole scene, which, you know, just makes my, you know, heart happy for a healthy relationship.
Mal: Yes. Very first tag on this one is “explicit sexual content”, which is very explicit. But they also have on there “safe, sane and consensual”, which like this book is like the epitome of that really.
CBFirestarter: It is, yeah. And still incredibly hot and sexy. Yeah. Yeah. It can be,
Mal: consent is [01:26:00] sexy, safe and sexy. Yeah, probably not much we can necessarily say about this one either. I feel like the summary gives away what’s happening in this one. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: And there was the part two is the somnophilia, which Oh yeah, I haven’t,
Mal: yes. Yeah. Consensual, we should put that out there as well. Consensual somnophilia yet
CBFirestarter: Exactly. Yeah. Like coaches, which is kind of by nature would be like a non-consensual act, right. You can’t do that without you would have to have consent before they fall asleep.
Mal: Yeah. So in this case this is very much a predetermined planned event has to be.
CBFirestarter: Exactly. Yeah. So it was I think I enjoyed that kink more than I thought I would. I did. I enjoyed the second half of that story,
Ellen: I just feel like how deeply are you sleeping that someone can actually just like start fucking you you don’t wake up like .
Mal: Right. They definitely sleep better than me. Yeah.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. I have a hard time getting into the reality of that. I’m just like, I am a light sleeper. There is no way.
Ellen: Yeah. If you like roll over and kick me you know, touch me, basically. I’m gonna wake up. Anyway
CBFirestarter: I tend to think that, I think that [01:27:00] realistically with those scenes, a lot of it is role playing. Where the person who’s supposed to be sleeping is maybe asleep at the start of it, and then just like purposefully stays in sleepy mode. but is, but knows what’s going on. Cuz I, I think that’s how I personally have to think of it because yeah. I have a hard time mentally, like really thinking someone could be pounded and not know what’s going on. But I thought they did a good job of that in this fic
Mal: most, yeah. Most of the time when I’ve seen it represented in fic it’s definitely more gentle, like pounding probably not gonna happen.
Ellen: Yeah. Or at least until they actually wake up and get with the program, you know
Mal: Which is what happens when they realize it’s happening. Yep.
Ellen: Anyway. Interesting kink
CBFirestarter: there’s so many kinks to explore.
Mal: Yeah. Yep. Almost endless amount. So yeah, there is that within this fic specifically in the second chapter, so I believe you can read the first one [01:28:00] kind of as the stand-alone thing just by itself. If you wish to and not engage with the second part at all, if it’s not your thing.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. They’re kind of two separate one shots.
Mal: Yeah. Love it when authors do that. , I usually just end up reading all of it. All of it. I mean, full disclosure here. But it’s out there for people who need that, you know?
CBFirestarter: Yeah, I don’t have a lot of hard limits on what I read, so I’m usually open to reading most things, so.
Mal: Yep. So my hard limits are for real life, not for fic.
CBFirestarter: Exactly. Same .
Ellen: It’s more, it’s also like morbid curiosity, you know, I dunno what this is, but okay let’s give it a go. You know, find out
CBFirestarter: that, that’s kind of how I felt with when we were writing Signal.
It was very like, I would never enjoy this myself. But it’s fun to imagine Dean or Cas enjoying it. Yeah. Like, why not? Let’s see if we can make this sexy. And Yeah. [01:29:00] There was a lot of stuff that, that we were able to make pretty sexy that I never would’ve thought would’ve worked.
Ellen: It worked so well.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. it did work. There was definitely a competitive air to me and TrenchcoatBaby writing that one where it was, it’s who can shock the other one the most. So when you’re writing a fic in BDSM genre and you’re just trying to shock the other co-author, you end up with a lot of strange, kinky scenes, but, it worked to our benefit.
Mal: All right. Shall we do one more quick one in depth, just because I would love to very quickly talk about Gabriel’s Gift, just because it is so different to the other ones. Definitely. I haven’t got it on this big list.
Ellen: I’m just gonna add it in and find it.
Mal: Okay. Yeah, I’ve read quite a few times.
Yeah it’s fun. It’s short. This is 5,418 words. It’s called Gabriel’s Gift by CassiopeiaMercutio, I believe is how they want that [01:30:00] pronounced. And the summary is just “For Castiel’s birthday. Gabriel decides to hire his virgin brother a prostitute. Of course, he doesn’t tell Castiel, and of course he accidentally hires a professional dom.”
It’s just such a Gabriel thing to do.
CBFirestarter: I can’t believe I haven’t read this one.
Mal: it’s just really good fun. There’s no, you know, consent is addressed in this, like obviously Cas does realize what’s going on,
Ellen: Yeah. It takes him a little while. At first he’s like…
Mal: yeah, kind of clicks eventually
Ellen: He’s like “Are you gonna deliver the gift? What is it? Just give it to me now.” And Dean’s like “okay, you’re playing hard to get,” and he’s just like, “What?!”
Mal: Yeah. Once he realizes, he’s like “you know what, I’m on board. Okay”
Ellen: “I’m okay with this, let’s do this”
CBFirestarter: and some Dom Dean, which we don’t see much of.
Mal: Yes. Not a ton of dom Deans out there, though. The ones I have read have all been really good.
So I did specifically wanted to include this one because it does have dominant Dean. It’s also just a [01:31:00] kind of entirely different concept, just a very fun, sort of almost accidental BDSM, really. But that there’s, like I said, there’s no consent issues with it, like Cas by the time things are happening, Cas’s definitely fully aware of what’s going on.
But it’s just good fun. It’s an extra little twist on things. What else? Oh, I think it’s also probably one of the only BDSM fics I’ve read, which has a virgin Cas in it at the beginning. Definitely not by the end. But it’s good fun, but it is a short one. It is just 5,400. It’s just a one shot really. But one that I don’t see talked about enough. So,
Ellen: yeah. And yeah, it is mostly smut. Like the beginning of it, the introduction of it is not much of the actual 5,000 words. Like most of it is Dean just telling Cas what to do.
Mal: Most of it is, yeah. There’s a fun discussion at the beginning of all the basically terrible gifts that Gabriel has tried to get for Cas’s birthday previously.
Including a car with fake plates and[01:32:00] and a Bengal tiger. So, you know, Dean was definitely a step up from the previous birthdays.
CBFirestarter: Sounds like the hangover movie.
Mal: Yeah!
CBFirestarter: So yeah, when I think of Dom Dean, the only fic that comes to my mind is Take the Lead. Yes. Which I think we’ve all discussed, which
Mal: yeah, we should definitely also mention that one.
CBFirestarter: And I know, I think this is one of the very first Destiel fics I read. I think it might have even been the first,
Mal: how old is this one? Because it was a long time ago. I read this too.
Ellen: I think it’s the first BDSM fic that I ever read.
CBFirestarter: I agree with you. I think you’re right. It’s the same for me. We probably read it at the same time.
Ellen: You probably told me about it.
CBFirestarter: probably!
Mal: Yeah. It was posted from the end of 2015 through to the middle of 2016. Yeah. And it is 66 and half thousand words. It’s Take the Lead by JinxedAmbitions. And the summary is “Castiel is one of the world’s biggest rock stars lead singer of the Garrison. [01:33:00] He’s living a life of decadence, but he can’t come up with inspiration for their next album. And they’re supposed to be back in the studio in a matter of weeks. It’s no secret that the Garrison’s music is mostly about Castiel’s sex life and the man experiments in love making as often as he does with the band’s sound. Now, Cas needs a new experience to inspire his music. Dean Winchester is a mixed martial artist with a reputation for being able to take a hard hit and being able to deliver an even harder one.
Having a fight in Vegas is surreal for the Kansas native. Being propositioned by a rock star after the fight is equally surreal. First of all, Castiel is decidedly male with a reputation for the ladies as sordid as Dean’s own Second, his proposition to be at Dean’s mercy in the bedroom is as ridiculous as it is intriguing.”
So,
Ellen: wow, that’s a really a long summary.
Mal: There’s a lot . Yeah, it’s a long summary. There’s a lot going on there. But it does give you a really clear image kind of idea of what’s going on in this fic, or at least the kind of very beginning of it and how they get where they’re going.
CBFirestarter: And Dean’s kind of, Dean is new to being a dom in [01:34:00] that story too. He hasn’t done it before. I think Cas just picks him out because of his personality. Cuz he’s like a fighter and
Mal: Yeah, he’s hot and he likes to hit things, so.
CBFirestarter: Exactly. So he is I think you could do this. And I think I love that story too, just cuz like Dean is like, researching. He’s like Googling, like BDSM and I’m like, I appreciate that cuz I did a lot of Googling cause I’m not like actually in the lifestyle.
So he’s like “let’s pull up a computer and see.” And then he actually planned some really amazing scenes as a first-time dom. And yeah, it’s, there’s some memorable stuff in that fic. Yeah, I really enjoy Dean as a dom even though I think I will always be a sub Dean girl at heart.
Mal: But yeah, it’s done really well in this one. I think it’s even more charming and better to read because he is new at it. So you are reading him kind of discovering things kind of about himself as well as he’s going along? Yeah.
CBFirestarter: They’re both kind of learning together cuz it’s not like Cas has ever been a submissive before either, so.
Mal: , it was a, [01:35:00] yeah, it was a DCBB fic back in 2015. So it does also actually have art by the Dangerous Ginger. Which is some very pretty like pencil drawing. I can’t describe art. I’m sorry. It looks great. Please go look at it. But it’s describing art things is not my strength, but it’s very pretty.
It is done with dark looking pencil stuff.
Ellen: Yay! Pencils! (laughs) Do you know we had on Twitter, it wasn’t like directed to us specifically, but I saw someone saying that they would like a podcast that is like Mixtape, but with artists like just talking about their methods and their inspirations and stuff.
I’m like, that is such a good idea. If I knew anything about art, I would totally talk more about artists and their stuff, but I’m yes, not an artist .
Mal: So maybe we should do an episode with an artist or two that likes to do Destiel stuff and just talk about, we could talk about things like reverse bangs and like how their whole like process and [01:36:00] just, it’d be pretty fascinating actually. I would have so many questions.
Ellen: Yes. All right. Pencil that one in for later. Pencil. Ha. . Yeah, well, we’ll try and sort that one out soon.
CBFirestarter: I’d love to listen to that.
Ellen: All right. No talking about rock stars. I also read, it’s a DCBB from 2019, so that’s a couple years ago now. Rooftops by Taybay14.
CBFirestarter: Oh yes, I do love that author.
Ellen: Castiel is a rockstar and Dean is his bodyguard that’s been hired. He’s a veteran who’s you know, been through some stuff, but he’s been hired for this job to be bodyguard for Cas. And the, at first I firmly felt like this was it took me a while to get the characters right in my head because, partially because this is written in first person, which is not usual for Destiel at all.
I think this is probably one of the first person fics that I’ve ever read. But you know, once you get the hang of it, like it’s, you know, once you get into the flow of it, it’s fine. It’s [01:37:00] great. And it is written from both points of view, which can be a little jarring when it’s first person if you’re not used to reading first person, but Cas is like a sort of in this emo band type thing, and he’s got, you know, bipolar and he’s very, it’s interesting character that I actually think this fic would make an absolutely brilliant original story. I’m not saying it’s out of character that author’s done a brilliant job of actually bringing like Dean and Cass’s personality into this thing.
But the world that they’ve built here and the way that they’ve described what’s happening with both of them is actually just, is really quite unique. So I really enjoyed it. And it is Dom Cas. He does… you’d think that as a veteran and a bodyguard that Dean might be the one who was doing the domming, but no, in this case, he needs to give up control and Cas recognizes that, and they have a relationship in that way.
And yeah, it’s really hot as well as being a really interesting story as well. It’s, it gets quite dark have a look at the tags. It does have PTSD, depression, self harm, and, you know, [01:38:00] suicidal tendency, that kind of thing. So it’s quite dark, but no one gets hurt too badly and it’s got a happy ending.
Mal: Right. Do we wanna do a little do you wanna do a little kind of quick fire round and just mention a few more that we particularly enjoy? Because I’m sure we, I’m sure we all have some
CBFirestarter: I have a favorite that that we haven’t talked about yet, which is Playing With Fire, which is by anyrei and queerwerewolf.
And oh my gosh, I’ve read this thick, insane amount and I met, I believe I read, I Wanna Get Outside (Of Me), Carry On, and then I think I read Playing With Fire and then after I’d read those three fics, I was like, I have to write BDSM. Like I have to cuz those stories were so good that I was like, I need to do this myself.
And for me, that’s to me the biggest compliment to a fic I read if it makes me wanna go run to my keyboard and start writing.
Mal: Yes. I think Playing With Fire has a sequel as well now, doesn’t it? [01:39:00]
CBFirestarter: It does, it has a threesome sequel with a third player coming into the relationship from the first story.
So some people struggle with that, right? You just want pure Destiel. But I actually, I love the sequel just as much as I love the first part, which I was pretty shocked by. But yeah, the first part it’s I actually, I’ve got it in front of me, but. I can read the summary really quick, but it’s:
“When two best friends foray into a supposedly no string sexual relationship, someone is bound to catch feelings. Someone is bound to fuck up and someone is bound to beg for forgiveness because that’s the recipe for romantic comedy. But life is not a romantic comedy no matter how much Dean Winchester secretly wishes it was. Instead, we present boy, finds out boy who has been his best friend for over 20 years, is secretly a dom. Boy then sort of tricks boy into taking him on as his new sub boy discovers a side of himself he never knew existed. Boy is in way over his head.”
And and it is [01:40:00] it’s both of them having been friends for 20 years. So there’s kind of like an established friendship, which I do love. And then they kind of just turn into, let’s be sex with benefits. Cuz you know, Dean’s like, I wanna explore this new side of me. And it’s funny cuz he goes into it with, I just really wanna have sex with Cas and if being his sub is how to do that, then I’ll do it. And then kind of finds out that, wow, I really like this.
But this fic is really good at consent. It’s really good at, I believe they use the stoplight system or it’s very good at safe word using and discussion of scenes. And they do a really good job of handling sub drop and dealing with that. So, As far as like a fit to read that has really good BDSM etiquette, I think this is one of the top of my list.
And do you cannot read this in public. It is just too steamy for words. It is. I think I was reading it at work one time on a lunch break and I’m like, I can’t I’m [01:41:00] gonna need to excuse myself to go home and I’ll look flushed and feverish. This is a problem like ,
Ellen: unless you’ve got like an iron poker face,
CBFirestarter: Oh, I just don’t have the poker face for it. And this author or authors in this case, they can write like smut scene chapters that are so long and yet they are so good and they’re not boring for even a second. I’m just like, I dunno how they do it, but like and yeah, I’ve always thoroughly enjoyed this one. It was very inspirational for me when it came to wanting to write my own stories, so.
Mal: Awesome.
CBFirestarter: I had to give it some love as well,
Ellen: It’s quite long, isn’t it? I don’t think they, these guys can write anything short.
CBFirestarter: they, no, they’re incapable. Well, it’s 116,000. That’s not terrible
Mal: That’s not too bad.
CBFirestarter: that’s pretty reasonable. I mean, then they wrote a second story, but Yeah,
I think the, what’s the second fit called? It’s called We Kiss and the Flames Get Higher and [01:42:00] that’s 185,000. So really if you put the two stories together, . Yeah. But it’s interesting cuz in the first story Cas is a dom and Dean is the sub. And then in the second story a friend of theirs, Inias gets pulled in and Inias is also a dom and Cas decides he wants to switch and sub for Inias and Dom with Dean.
So there’s a lot of very interesting scenes with that where sometimes Cas and Inias are both domming Dean at the same time and sometimes Inias is domming both Cas and Dean at the same time. Sometimes they’re off in a pair or sometimes they’re together and it’s kind of them all figuring out how that relationship works without jealousy being an issue.
Which of course jealousy is an issue cause why wouldn’t it be? But if you’re a little open-minded and you don’t mind a third person getting in on your Destiel love, it’s actually a really cool fic. [01:43:00] So.
Mal: Excellent. I feel like that fit is probably a really good lead into talking about Fire and Ice by Castielslostwings.
CBFirestarter: Oh yeah, that’s a great one.
Mal: Yeah. Which is 189,000 words. And this one is Firefighter Dean and Medic Castiel. And again they are kind of coworkers in, in that sphere, really. They interact a lot. They are friends. And again, it’s, you know, that trope that we love so much. Where Dean decides he’ll do pretty much anything if he gets to have sex with Cas, really.
So it’s the actual kind of smut scenes in this are amazing. It’s another one of those things where it’s like probably aren’t gonna wanna read this one in your lunch break. just,
Ellen: I think she said she made a point as she was writing this to say that she’s trying to put smut in every chapter. So, you know, it’s, there’s a lot. It’s a lot of smut
Mal: Yes and there’s a lot of different kinks [01:44:00] in this. They are, you know, really well tagged for. So you’re gonna know if there’s anything coming that you are going to want to skip, but there, there’s a lot of really good things in this that I was very fond of seeing. There’s everything from, you know, your basic kind of… I say basic bondage as if it’s just normal, well, very vanilla these days. Basic bondage, everything from, you know, toys to breath play to edge play to. Everything. There’s a lot of different stuff in this. And it’s all entwined with this amazing story where you kind of just want to smack their heads together a lot because you just want them to communicate and they communicate so well in one aspect, and then it just all falls apart the second they put their clothes back on.
Which is one of my favorite dynamics in these fics, honestly, I have to admit, I love it that they prove how well they can communicate and then they just don’t. [01:45:00]
CBFirestarter: Yeah. That’s a must read for the BDSM genre.
Mal: Yes. Absolute must read. Love it. So that’s Castielslostwings
Ellen: There are printed copies of this available at cost price. No one’s making any money from getting their fics printed at the moment, but there is a trend going around where people are offering printed versions of their fics. And this is one of them that you can get ahold of if you just message Castielslostwings and she’ll sort you out with that, I think.
And at the same time just talking about that, we also, I’ve been told in no uncertain terms that I must make you talk about Russian to the Altar, Mal.
Mal: No, I thought I’d gone through this whole thing without mentioning it. Ah!
CBFirestarter: It’s so good though!
Mal: We were doing so well.
Ellen: I was told that I had to hold you down and force you to talk about it.
CBFirestarter: I’ve been biting my tongue this whole episode and I kept thinking, am I allowed to mention it? Because I know you guys don’t like to talk about your fics, but [01:46:00] I love that one.
Ellen: we’ve talked about a quite a few times before because it fits in like multiple genre things we’ve talked about.
CBFirestarter: Well, yeah, you’ve got Russian Cas, you’ve got fake relationship, you’ve got BDSM. I mean, there’s a lot. And then yeah, there’s a lot going on in that one. It you’ve got some awesome tropes. You’ve got Cas doing yoga. Yes. Amazing. I love the yoga scenes.
Ellen: I guess I, I wanted to ask you, like with Russian did you set out at first to write a BDSM fic with, you know, Cas’s being an author who writes this stuff and or did the BDSM stuff come in afterwards kind of thing… like did it blindside you or did you intend for that to be the case?
Mal: No. It was very much planned from the beginning. That fic was three things coming together. It was me wanting to specifically write certain BDSM things, which I just hadn’t gotten to explore yet in other fics. It [01:47:00] was somewhat personal experience when it came to immigration, various other things.
Just like to say, my marriage is real, just putting that out there. But there was a lot of kind of personal immigration stuff that I just kind of wanted to work through and get outta my head. And then there was also the entire thing was prompted by a post that I saw that was a kind of a, like a, almost like a cute meet-cute kind of thing where an author had written something in the author’s note of their story about who it was about.
Now that scene did not end up making it into the story. Just because for anybody who has read that one, know that the particular book that Cas is writing in that story has not yet been published by the time the story ends. But it is published in the timestamp that’s coming out this month. I should probably say that.
Ellen: Yes. A timestamp is coming!
Mal: I mean something I should point out Yes. The timestamp that finally has not only the title of Cas’s book, [01:48:00] but a lot more details about Cas’s book and various other events in their lives. Yes. Can I come out from under the cushions now?
Ellen: Okay.Unless you’ve got any questions about it. Cb, come on put it on the spot again.
CBFirestarter: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I feel like I got a lot of my questions out when I was probably commenting on the fic. One of the joys of knowing the author of a Work in Progress.
Mal: It was fun to do. It was fun. And I have missed writing like good length BDSM like that since I finished that one. I’ve only done kind of shorter, like I’ve done a couple, like 30,000 ish BDSM fics since then, but like just various short things. And I had been really missing it. So I am now glad that I am sinking my teeth into not one but two BDSM fics simultaneously because apparently I’m just very extra and can’t do things by halves
CBFirestarter: I feel like once I started writing BDSM, I just didn’t stop. I [01:49:00] feel like all my fics have been BDSM and if they do, you aren’t, they’re Omegaverse. I’m like, apparently I need to have something extra. Oh. Which it’s funny cuz my current other fic I’m considering is my next work in progress is neither of those two genres.
Mal: Changing it up. Okay.
CBFirestarter: Oh yeah. I mean, we’ll see. We’ll see. I’ve got like the first chapter written. I think Ellen’s already read it for me once, but that was a while ago.
Ellen: That wasn’t, I wondering how you’re going with that one.
CBFirestarter: Yeah, it’s just sitting in the wings. I decided I couldn’t touch it until Whiplash was done, so , which I finished, and I, you know, I’m really hoping that by the time you guys air this podcast, that the final chapter of Whiplash is posted and done and everybody can go and read the completed work cuz and that last chapter took us a while
Mal: Well we will talk about it again, if we do the biological BDSM episode.
CBFirestarter: Yeah, there you go. It’ll be ready to go by then. . So Well, whatever you write next, we will be here [01:50:00] for it. I’m certain.
Ellen: I was gonna also say that while we were talking about, you know, the popular fandom classics that we can’t not mention Four Letter Word For Intercourse, which we have spoken about before on our two-person love triangle episode.
CBFirestarter: So many times, because it’s so good
Ellen: So if you want to hear us and talking with Bendingsignpost about that fic, then go and listen to that episode because he went into great detail on his planning and execution for that story. So, which was great to sort of delve into. So
Mal: yeah, it was great to get to pick his brain about that one.
Ellen: Yeah. I’m gonna have to go reread that one too. That’s one of my ultimate favorites.
CBFirestarter: You can’t reread that fact too many times.
Ellen: No, it’s just very long. That’s the only trouble . It’s so long. It’s like rereading it.
Mal: It is it’s a big chunk, but it’s like a comfort fic almost like when you get into it, like it just slips by really quickly.
CBFirestarter: It’s familiar.
Ellen: Just read that one chapter when. When they realize what’s happening.
Mal: I can’t let a BDSM episode go without mentioning Sexters Anon by [01:51:00] unforth. Castiel Novak is a successful businessman. He’s very reliable and, you know, has a lot of stress on him. But he doesn’t trust himself with other people.
He gets too involved and he starts putting the relationships before everything else that he has to do. So instead of risking that, he turns to sextersanon.com. A site that helps as a. the summary says “like-minded individuals find each other for anonymous sexting” and obviously it stays very anonymous
Ellen: Sure.
Mal: It actually does for a while.
CBFirestarter: Yeah. For a good part of it.
Mal: But, Yeah. This is a series, so it was started off, the first fic is about 16,000 words, and then there is a series of bigger fics behind it. But you can just read the first story as a standalone if you want to. I would recommend reading all of them. I love them. So quick fire onto the next one. I’m going to mention Sweet Boy by mishaminion69 and sydkn3e. This one is a very long, fic as well. It’s 195,000 words.[01:52:00] This one does have a kind of lot of sort of daddy kink dynamic in it. There’s no like age play or anything like that in it.
And it also does have a older Cas and a younger Dean. Though again, there is no there’s no underage or anything like that in this, there’s just an age difference in this fic.
CBFirestarter: Yeah, that fic was the first daddy kink fic that I really enjoyed.
Mal: Yeah, it’s actually have a very it’s gonna sound strange if I say that it’s a very wholesome fic in a way,
CBFirestarter: but it is.
Mal: It is. Yeah. It’s just very like warm and lovely when you read it. And their relationship is wonderful and the way that it evolves and they kind of finally admit to being in love with each other is wonderful. I would definitely recommend it to anybody. It’s a very much a kink with lots of emotions involved, so it’s a good one.
And I also want to quickly mention the String Theory series by NadiaHart which starts off with Cat’s Cradle and then there’s a couple of [01:53:00] other follow up to it. And this is kind of a traditional Dean is overworked, goes to his local club to let off some steam, and meets a very interesting dom while he’s there.
It’s just very well written. Like it’s one of those fics when you read it, you can really just picture everything in technicolor. So I love this and I’ve read it multiple times and again, it’s just one of those that I don’t always see recommended and I don’t know why. So. I think I’m done.
CBFirestarter: That’s a solid list.
Ellen: CB, thank you so much for coming to talk to us about this today. It was a pleasure to have you back.
CBFirestarter: Yes, thank you guys so much for having me on. I really had I love talking about this stuff. I could talk for ages, so . Thanks for giving me the opportunity to come on here and rant and talk about my favorite, one of my favorite things, fanfic and BDSM, fanfic and Destiel.
Ellen: So, yay anytime. And we look forward to [01:54:00] seeing your your final chapter of Whiplash very soon.
CBFirestarter: so excited to share it. I just, I cannot wait to post.
Ellen: So all the links to all of the fics that we’ve talked about today and can be found on our website. Mixtapebookclub.com. Thank you. We have to say thank you also to the people in Profound Bond Discord server where we have a channel. We asked for recommendations for BDSM Fics and we got so, so many. We’ve got like a huuuge list.
Mal: like over 50.
Ellen: Over 50. So, I’m gonna list them all. I’m just gonna throw all of them on this episode blog. The episode post. So you won’t be without something to read after you go and look at this. Absolutely not. So you can get in touch with us. Tell us about your favorite Dom/sub fic that we haven’t talked about. And I’ll add it to the great big list. And you can contact us at mixtapebookclub at a lot of social media places or you can email us [01:55:00] contact (at) mixtapebookclub.com.
Mal: Next episode we are going to be discussing royalty AUs. So complete switch up from BDSM.
Ellen: Yeah, you never know. There might be some that have some, you know, spanking or Team Dean’s red ass.
Mal: Oh, yeah. That’s now my goal. I need to find one that’s very kinky
Ellen: So thank you everyone for listening, and we’ll talk to you again very soon.
Mal: And as always, remember that the story isn’t over until we say it is.
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